Fantasyland Expansion

[R***@aol.com]

Not sure if you guys ever check out blueskydisney.blogspot.com but
last week he had this post about some rumored expansion/make over to
WDW Fantasyland

http://blueskydisney.blogspot.com/2008/07/blue-sky-buzz-orlando-its-just-fantasy.html

So tonight I took a peak on Google Earth and man...there is a HUGE
chunk o land back there that looks pretty ready and waiting for some
construction. I don't know how long its been gone but there was a
large truck loading/unloading deal behind 20K Leagues....it looks long
gone.

Anyways if you take a look at it you can certainly see where is plenty
o room to add several attractions back there, possiblly even
connecting up to Mickey's Toowntown.

www.raymation.net

[t***@aol.com]

I did not look at the ariel shots Ray but what might not be clear in
them is that there is a huge elevation difference back there behind
where 20K used to be. Remember how the MK is actually a second story,
well it is really more like a split level... in the back there is like
a 30 foot fall off from the back of the 20K area down to an employee
entrance and loading area. I guess they could take this over and
obviously there are ways to work around it but it may not be quite as
usable as the sat shots imply.

[R***@aol.com]

Well it appears that the giant employee loading area is gone. I
remember it was a large cement structure where trucks could drive
right on down to the tunnels. I found an older image that still
showed it as well as trucks and such parked around it. But yeah you
can't detect the fall off at all really. When you have a moment give
it a look at Google Earth and see what you think.....

www.raymation.net

[Sonya In Disguise]

Post by R***@aol.com
Well it appears that the giant employee loading area is gone. I
remember it was a large cement structure where trucks could drive
right on down to the tunnels. I found an older image that still
showed it as well as trucks and such parked around it. But yeah you
can't detect the fall off at all really. When you have a moment give
it a look at Google Earth and see what you think.....
www.raymation.net

Mr. Mation, Ray,

The area hasn't changed much since it was originally built - the cast
entrance (turck unloading, brinks-truck entrance into the utilidors) is
still there, 200 feet behind the castle (and just east of the Small World
building). The area that used to be 20K is now grass but was filled-in a bit
to bring the level up to that of the main park. There was never a loading
area BEHIND (to the north of) 20K. SO what I am saying is that what is there
NOW, is the same as it always was except for dirt and grass where the lagoon
used to be (and Pooh's Playground of course).

I also hope they build back there too :-)

-- The 'other' Sonya

[R***@aol.com]

hey sonya,

actually, looking at the images it has changed a bit back there....

here is a picture from 2002: Loading Image...

and here is the most recent image on Google Earth:
http://www.raymation.net/images/mk-sat02.bmp

the large cement structure is gone. now i thought trucks could drive
down into the tunnels through that cement structure was that true?
anyways it looks like they have cleaned it up back there and would
make a pretty good size addition to Fantasyland....

http://www.raymation.net

[R***@aol.com]

Couple more images...

Loading Image...

Loading Image...


http://www.raymation.net

[Sonya In Disguise]

Hi Ray,

The confusion here is that the concrete structure that you refer to is (was)
the building that housed 20K - the subs would go 'deep under water' to where
the water is dark and this was achieved by the subs driving into the
building (the building also housed the repair facility). This is gone and
replaced by the grassy field, as you point out. There was never an entrance
to the utilidors from THAT building.

Now, if you look to the left of the grass, and then past a tiny stand of
trees, you'll see the actual entrance to the utilidors - the access road
leads right to it and there are some cars parked behind it. That hasn't
changed at all. Just to the left of that is the Small World building and to
the north, beyond some more trees, the fireworks launch site (right next to
the road)

And you are right - there is now plenty of room for something to take the
place of the grass.

Sonya

Post by R***@aol.com
hey sonya,
actually, looking at the images it has changed a bit back there....
http://www.disneypix.com/Multimedia/MagicKingdom_Full.jpg
http://www.raymation.net/images/mk-sat02.bmp
the large cement structure is gone. now i thought trucks could drive
down into the tunnels through that cement structure was that true?
anyways it looks like they have cleaned it up back there and would
make a pretty good size addition to Fantasyland....
http://www.raymation.net

[R***@aol.com]

Post by Sonya In Disguise
The confusion here is that the concrete structure that you refer to is (was)
the building that housed 20K - the subs would go 'deep under water' to where
the water is dark and this was achieved by the subs driving into the
building (the building also housed the repair facility).

ahhh I gotcha...now I'm remembering....thats where all the sunken
remains of Atlantis was located right?


http://www.raymation.net

[Sonya In Disguise]

Gosh Ray, I forgot exactly what was IN that dark portion. Atlantis ? Cool.
It's been close for so many years I can barely remember what they had
outside the window....

Sonya

Post by R***@aol.com

Post by Sonya In Disguise
The confusion here is that the concrete structure that you refer to is (was)
the building that housed 20K - the subs would go 'deep under water' to where
the water is dark and this was achieved by the subs driving into the
building (the building also housed the repair facility).

ahhh I gotcha...now I'm remembering....thats where all the sunken
remains of Atlantis was located right?
http://www.raymation.net

[R***@aol.com]

If I'm remembering right Nemo takes you past the ruins of Atlantis and
then you get attacked by the squid. I honestly don't remember when I
went on it before it closed....early 80s maybe?


http://www.raymation.net

[t***@aol.com]

OK, well I worked on the damn 20K ride DECADES ago but trust me, I
will NEVER forget what is in there or what was behind the show
building.

First of all Sonya is splitting hairs, when I say "behind the 20K show
building" I simply meant behind the general area... yes, technically
speaking the utilidor entrance is to the back. And TRUST ME Sonya,
there used to be a loading dock back there... anyway I was referring
to the main Utilidor entrance which has not moved at all.

You can clearly see on the photos that this area is elevated though it
would not be an issue since it is now the same level as the rest of
the park (it used to be lower but was filled in). Obviously they
filled this in with future expansion in mind and the room is there for
MANY things.

As to what was in the show building, well actually almost the entire
ride! The polar ice caps, the graveyard of sunken ships, the deep
sea, Atlantis, the Sea serpent, the crushed sub, the squid attack and
more. All you saw AFTER the indoor show building was some generic
fish and then into the dock... before the show building you saw some
turtles, some grouper and the divers.

I really wish they never removed 20K but I must admit it was an odd
fit with FL and now they have a chance to do something great. My
guess is that we will see the same Mermaid attraction DCA is getting,
at least that is what the convention wisdom is betting on.

[t***@aol.com]

As an aside in regards to space planning... study the DL version of FL
sometimes, they have so many attractions crammed into such a small
space it is truly amazing. The attractions are all interwoven going
above and below each other in an interconnected way which makes them
inseparable. There are MANY parts of DL in which 2 or 3 attractions
share the same physical space at once... it is really cool. Disney
obviously could (though they will not) apply this model to WDW and
stack MANY attractions in what seems like small spaces.

[t***@aol.com]

Wow my typing SUCKS...

First of all I meant to say to that the utilidors were technically to
the LEFT, not the back. Secondly I meant to say CONVENTIONAL... not
convention, man I suck.

[Sonya In Disguise]

But I get what you meant just fine. Thanks for the update. I did get a tour
of the 20K building once, repair area, crane, catwalks - back in the 90s
attraction managers sometimes offered to take groups of CMs on these tours
(did the walking tour of Spaceship Earth too). I always loved them and
always love being 'backstage' at places.

Sonya

Post by t***@aol.com
Wow my typing SUCKS...
First of all I meant to say to that the utilidors were technically to
the LEFT, not the back. Secondly I meant to say CONVENTIONAL... not
convention, man I suck.

[t***@aol.com]

Yea, when you do the backstage stuff it is always fun but also
disappointing in some ways. I mean 20K above the water line in the
show building looked like a mess... I mean it was a bunch of plywood
and 2x4 walk ways... really looked like a high school play set or
something, yet under the water was a totally different world!

[9Lanterns]

If we play the Armchair Imagineer game, I have to say that there would
be thousands of items on my TODO list that are ahead of moving Small
World to World Showcase. IASW may fit thematically with World
Showcase, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. But why would we spend all
the time, effort, and money moving one ride from one park to the
next? IASW fits just as well in Fantasyland as it does anywhere else,
and we don't need the space, as Ray's satellite photos clearly show.
So what improvement does that buy us? To me, it's the same as
building a giant hat or a wand. There is no need to do so, as it
provides absolutely zero benefit (though probably without the horrible
tackiness).

However, Trav's idea about bringing back a modernized Mr. Toad really
appeals to me. Toad still draws quite a crowd in Disneyland, in spite
of being 50 years old. I think you could do a really incredible
update to the dark ride, making it even more zany, with tons of cool
effects, without spending too much money. I wouldn't get rid of Pooh
to do this though. I'd simply find a new spot for Toad. Heck, I'd
bulldoze the worthless mess that is Toontown/Speedway, and fill that
area in with new attractions.

I also think WDW did themselves a grave disservice by removing the
submarines. They were much cooler than the Disneyland subs. If I had
the chance, I'd bring them back, utilizing the same clever methods
that Disneyland used to improve the maintenance: the clear airtight
boxes, projection effects, etc. BUT, I wouldn't theme it to Nemo.
I'd still make it 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Imagine a great
adventure ride utilizing the Nemo-type effects, but based on the
classic book/movie. I think it would be mobbed from sun-up to sun-
down, even though it isn't based on a recent movie.

Finally, I've always wanted to bring Alice to Fantasyland, but as a
show building that is somehow built OVER the mad tea party. So that
the dark ride and tea party are sort of background for each other.
I'd even put in a wonderland restaurant, just to add full-service
capacity. And of course, there are hundreds of more ideas...

-Shane

[t***@aol.com]

Yet with all those hundreds of ideas the reality is that we will
probably get a Little Mermaid attraction largely similar to the DCA
one... which is not really a bad thing, I am sure the ride will be
great... but it does seem somehow underwhelming.

Now I tell you what they could do with that land AND with a mermaid
attraction... make an all inclusive Mermaid land similar to the indoor
extravaganza they have at TDS. Anchor it with the full scale ride but
also include the dining and mini rides of TDS... then you would have a
legit answer for the kiddie crap going on in the poor version of Toon
Town they currently have. This would allow most of Toon Town to be
bulldozed and replaced with a full fledged version... only improved.

[T***@aol.com]

Post by t***@aol.com
Now I tell you what they could do with that land AND with a mermaid
attraction... make an all inclusive Mermaid land similar to the indoor
extravaganza they have at TDS. �Anchor it with the full scale ride but
also include the dining and mini rides of TDS... then you would have a
legit answer for the kiddie crap going on in the poor version of Toon
Town they currently have. �This would allow most of Toon Town to be
bulldozed and replaced with a full fledged version... only improved.

Maybe that's what WDI is planning, put Dwarf Mountain over
the old 20K site and Mermaid Lagoon where ToonTown now is. But, they
could arrange to have the lagoon itself on the east side of the
mountain, so we could see Ariel and her friends sunning themselves on
rocks overlooking the mountain, like we used to see at DL.
Yes, one of the things that adult males will love about ML
will be the live mermaids. I know that I have a strange attraction to
Ariel, along with Tink, Jasmine and, of course, JESSICA. Now, if only
Diz would make a new Roger and Jessica movie. Then, we just might see
a ride tied to it for our Fantasyland!

[t***@aol.com]

OK Trav... you have once again crossed into the creepy zone.

Thankfully for those poor actresses that otherwise would be ogled by
Trav there will be no live mermaids anywhere near FL.

[z***@hotmail.com]

Alright I'll chime in on this since I haven't posted here in a while.

It's great to hear the rumors of a bigger and better FL at WDW. I
guess the Mermaid ride is pretty much a sure thing after DCA gets
theirs. As Ray has shown with his satellite pics they have plenty of
room for more development.

It's funny, I too have thought about a brand new "Mr. Toads Wild Ride
2.0". I thought it would be fun if they "EMVed" the antique car ride
vehicles so they could bounce around and tilt forward and back - just
like on Indy or CTX but toned down so little junior and grandma could
ride with no problem. I also thought you'd board the cars outside,
and then zig-zag through some English gardens before "crashing" into
the Toad Hall show building. You know, without even seeing the
cartoon that the ride is based on, "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride" has great
name recognition (it was casually mentioned in a Kevin Smith film once
if I remember correctly). This is something I'd think those people in
the marketing department would want to capitalize on.

One thing I'm not a fan of is the very idea of a "5th Gate." Sure I
guess if WDW were to announce they were pouring billions into
something truly amazing I could get excited about it, but frankly I
don't it's necessary. Four parks is plenty, and there's some much
that can still be done with all of them. Just lavish a little TLC on
the exciting parks - add more great rides, or brand new lands (I
haven't forgotten about the Beastly Kingdom, although I'd be in favor
of a name change. It's just too close to sounding like Bestiality
Kingdom), well-done rehabs of existing attractions (like HM), and even
major rehabs of entire lands (yeah, I'm looking at you Toon Town
Fair).

[T***@aol.com]

�IASW may fit thematically with World
Showcase, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. �But why would we spend all
the time, effort, and money moving one ride from one park to the
next? �IASW fits just as well in Fantasyland as it does anywhere else,

Granted, but you would have a GIGANTIC show building left
behind to fill with new dark rides. Secondly, World Showcase
desperately needs a high-capacity ride! Why not put IASW there? I'd
place it right between FW and WS makes a lot of sense. The only
problem is those pesky SINKHOLES that line the walkway there. I
wouldn't mind seeing it replace the Imagination building. You wouldn't
need to raze it; just gut it and place the Small World ride inside and
stick a new, fancy facade on the front!

However, Trav's idea about bringing back a modernized Mr. Toad really
appeals to me. �Toad still draws quite a crowd in Disneyland, in spite
of being 50 years old. �I think you could do a really incredible
update to the dark ride, making it even more zany, with tons of cool
effects, without spending too much money. �I wouldn't get rid of Pooh
to do this though. �I'd simply find a new spot for Toad. �Heck, I'd
bulldoze the worthless mess that is Toontown/Speedway, and fill that
area in with new attractions.

It is interesting that THREE of the company's famous dark
rides have English themes...Mr. Toad, Alice and Peter Pan. Why not
create an English corner for Fantasyland and put all of them there?
I'd like to see a "Wonderland" area just behind the IASW building,
styled like the English countryride. A new version of Dl's dark ride
would be in the north side of the giant building, with a relocated
Mad Tea Party outside, a new version of DLP's Labarynth against the
woods and a fast food facility under a giant mushroom. All the chairs
and tables would be smaller mushrooms, too. Just outside Wonderland,
in a wooded area, would be Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. Cars could "escapt"
into a park just next door, and travel in an outdoor, gag-filled
miniature town. Finally, to the right of Mr Toad, I'd have Peter Pan's
Flight, in a little London street. There could even be a full scale
Pirate Ship moored next door...in the Mermaid Lagoon, overlooking
Ariel's new ride.

I also think WDW did themselves a grave disservice by removing the
submarines. �

Yeah, Iger is going to regret that boneheaded decision.
They'll end up digging out a nearly identical lagoon for Ariel, when
they could have just drained theold one, change the theming somewhat,
and save millions.

They were much cooler than the Disneyland subs. �If I had

the chance, I'd bring them back, utilizing the same clever methods
that Disneyland used to improve the maintenance: the clear airtight
boxes, projection effects, etc. �BUT, I wouldn't theme it to Nemo.
I'd still make it 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. �

Let's hope we see this in a Fifth Gate for WDW, what I hope
they'll call "Disney FantaSea." There, along with a new home for the
Nautilus, we could see a relocated and expanded POTC and a full-scale
version of TDL's Sinbad ride.(I was hoping for a Little Mermaid area,
like TDL has, but I guess the MK will get that very soon).

[T***@aol.com]

Post by R***@aol.com

Post by Sonya In Disguise
The confusion here is that the concrete structure that you refer to is (was)
the building that housed 20K - the subs would go 'deep under water' to where
the water is dark and this was achieved by the subs driving into the
building (the building also housed the repair facility).

ahhh I gotcha...now I'm remembering....thats where all the sunken
remains of Atlantis was located right?
http://www.raymation.net

Actually, about two fhirds of the 20K ride was contained in
this unseen building.

[T***@aol.com]

Post by R***@aol.com
Anyways if you take a look at it you can certainly see where is plenty
o room to add several attractions back there, possiblly even
connecting up to Mickey's Toowntown.
www.raymation.net

I vividly remember working at WDW during the Fall of 1977.
I made sure to visit as much of the Backstage areas of the MK whenever
I could. I took several trips by bus from the CM lot behind the MK,
which took you over the Railroad by bridge, then turned a corner while
it passed behind the enormous 20K show building. The bus would stop in
front of the main Utilidor entrance, located just behind Pinocchio's
Village Haus- but some thirty feet below! The only thing on the ground
is a parking lot, which guests can't see from within the park.
I've said on ths board MANY times before how underulitized
the Fantasyland acreage is, and how you could easily triple the land
in size with what lies behind it!
As I've also said many times before, the first thing they
should do is move IASW to EPCOT's World Showcase. In the vacant show
building you could fit THREE dark rides. I'd put an east coast version
of Pinocchio's Daring Journey right next to PVH. Where the old Skyway
station was could go a new Snow White's Adventures. In the back of the
SW building could go an Alice ride, like the one at DL, along with a
relocated Mad Tea Party.
Before anything was built behind the SW building, you'd have
to build an elevated "deck" above the parking lot, so the area was
accessible from Fantasyland, and still sllow the Tunnel Entrance to
operate unseen.
And, obviously, the vast, empty footprint left behind by
the removed 20K ride would be ideal for a mountain, like the
Matterhorn. It would be great if they could ditch the fake Pooh forest
in front and install a Little Mermaid lagoon and ride.
I'd also rip out the crappy Pooh ride and put back in a
new, insane version of Mr. Toad, and have the ride run OUTSIDE, in a
simulated English countryside wher the Tea Party used to be. If the
even crappier Indy ride was gone, you'd have plenty of room to make
this area large and gag-filled.
I'd also update Peter Pan's Flight, making it as amazing as
the one at DL, which appeared in 1983.
One final improvement I'd make, if I had the power, would
be to RESTORE THE MICKEY MOUSE REVUE!!!! That was never out of focus,
unlike the Pharharmagic.

[Sonya In Disguise]

Post by T***@aol.com
As I've also said many times before, the first thing they
should do is move IASW to EPCOT's World Showcase. In the vacant show
building you could fit THREE dark rides. I'd put an east coast version
of Pinocchio's Daring Journey right next to PVH. Where the old Skyway
station was could go a new Snow White's Adventures. In the back of the
SW building could go an Alice ride, like the one at DL, along with a
relocated Mad Tea Party.

I agree that the IASW building could hold two or three new dark rides but
how would you put anything where the old skyway station was - looking at the
sat image, the skyway station and surrounding area is tiny (and that can be
seen when inside the park too). Right behind the skyway building is the HM
building so there could not be any expansion that direction and the other
three sides of that area are all park-bound. Perhaps you meant something
different ?

Post by T***@aol.com
Before anything was built behind the SW building, you'd have
to build an elevated "deck" above the parking lot, so the area was
accessible from Fantasyland, and still sllow the Tunnel Entrance to
operate unseen.

Now I am even more confused. Does SW = Snow White ? I do agree that they
could add an elevated deck over the utilidor entrance that would give them
more space, but you had SW going in on the other side of IASW (where the
skyway station is/was). I'm not trying to make trouble, I just want to get a
good picture of what you are suggesting.

Or do you mean SW = IASW and it would go directly north of the dark ride
building ??

Post by T***@aol.com
And, obviously, the vast, empty footprint left behind by
the removed 20K ride would be ideal for a mountain, like the
Matterhorn. It would be great if they could ditch the fake Pooh forest
in front and install a Little Mermaid lagoon and ride.

I agree with you here !!

Post by T***@aol.com
I'd also rip out the crappy Pooh ride and put back in a
new, insane version of Mr. Toad, and have the ride run OUTSIDE, in a
simulated English countryside wher the Tea Party used to be. If the
even crappier Indy ride was gone, you'd have plenty of room to make
this area large and gag-filled.

Does Indy = the speedway ? That would be rather cool to have a huge
gag-filled garden out there and a whacky ride running through it. Let's get
a petition going !!!

Sonya

[T***@aol.com]

Post by Sonya In Disguise
I agree that the IASW building could hold two or three new dark rides but
how would you put anything where the old skyway station was - looking at the
sat image, the skyway station and surrounding area is tiny (and that can be
seen when inside the park too). Right behind the skyway building is the HM
building so there could not be any expansion that direction and the other
three sides of that area are all park-bound. Perhaps you meant something
different ?

I was thinking about having a little Scary Forest outside
the entrance to a new Snow White ride. Placing it where the Skyway
Station remains seems to make sense. However, you'd be entering the
former ISAW building on the upper floor...which might help squeeze
more into it!!

Post by Sonya In Disguise
Now I am even more confused. Does SW = Snow White ? I do agree that they
could add an elevated deck over the utilidor entrance that would give them
more space, but you had SW going in on the other side of IASW (where the
skyway station is/was). I'm not trying to make trouble, I just want to get a
good picture of what you are suggesting. Or do you mean SW = IASW and it would go directly north of the dark ride building ??

Sorry for the confusion. I meant Small World, but I see how
you'd think I meant Snow White. Anyway, to add anything behind the
cavernous ISAW building you'd have to extend the existing "deck" that
guests walk on to the north, which would allow the lower level to
continue to be used. But, you'd have to move the parking lot down
there away from the expansion area. Only electric vehicles are allowed
in the Utilidors, due to the danger of fumes. (Ambulances and armored
cars are the only exceptions).

Post by Sonya In Disguise

� � � � � And, obviously, the vast, empty footprint left behind by
the removed 20K ride would be ideal for a mountain, like the
Matterhorn. It would be great if they could ditch the fake Pooh forest
in front and install a Little Mermaid lagoon and ride.

I agree with you here !!

If they did build a mountain there, the new Little
Mermaid show building could easily be hidden within the base.

Post by Sonya In Disguise
Does Indy = the speedway ? That would be rather cool to have a huge
gag-filled garden out there and a whacky ride running through it. Let's get
a petition going !!!
Sonya

Yes, that's the new name for the equally crappy Grand
Prix Raceway. It is, without any doubt, the biggest waste of space in
the whole park! The only thing that redeems it, for me, are the giant
oak trees that decorate the grounds.